Episode 3
· 34:50
Hey. I'm Matt and this is my voice 2 weeks on t. Hey. I'm Matt and this is my voice 3 months on t. Hey.
Mattie Cox:I'm Matt and
Mattie Cox:this is my voice, 6 months on T. This is my voice, 11 months on T. I'm Matt and this is my voice, almost 2 years on T. I'm Maddie Cox.
Alex Cox:And I'm Alex Cox.
Mattie Cox:This is a show about gender, our minds, and transitions.
Alex Cox:Welcome to 2 Headed Girl. I think this is an episode I think this is an episode that a lot of people have been waiting for and are very interested in. And it revolves around the topic of dysphoria. Can you explain what dysphoria is?
Mattie Cox:Yeah. Of course. So basically, dysphoria is the, discomfort someone feels with their assigned gender at birth. So when I came out of the womb, I was, it's a girl, and wrapped in pink. And later in life, I realized, hey, this isn't me.
Mattie Cox:I don't have the words to describe this, but this makes me feel uncomfortable. And then there are 2 main types of dysphoria. Social dysphoria is, where you compare yourself to others and feel really uncomfortable in the societal expectations of gender binary. So, like, when I'm shopping at Target and I'm like, Ugh, there's all these pink girl toys and all these blue boy toys. Or when I'm looking at the bathrooms and I'm like, well, why can't there just be an option for, you know, a family restroom or any gender or, you know, any person to go into.
Mattie Cox:And comparing yourself to, like, cisgender men, so men that are born male and always percent masculine, and feeling uncomfortable, feeling different, wanting to almost like wanting to be like them. And then physical dysphoria is when you have discomfort with certain parts of your body. So, like, for me, it's my chest. Until my voice dropped, it was definitely my voice. Before there's, like, fat redistribution, it was my hips.
Alex Cox:Also, everybody experiences dysphoria in different type of ways. Some people can just have social dysphoria, other people just body dysphoria, and not just trans people have dysphoria.
Mattie Cox:Yeah. It's important to point out that you don't need dysphoria to be trans.
Alex Cox:That that as well. In order to alleviate dysphoria, a lot of folks choose to what's known as medically transition. And we're gonna focus on FTM transitions, female to male, just because neither of us have, the woman's experience about transitioning, but we'll definitely have someone on in the future to talk about that.
Mattie Cox:The first step in medically transitioning for me was getting on testosterone. And testosterone is a hormone that occurs in every person's body, but at different levels in the male body as opposed to the female body. Basically, when I started taking testosterone, it would lower my estrogen levels and give me the testosterone levels of, what society does as a typical male. And I was distributed that, from my doctor, my endocrinologist, which is the doctor that I see at Howard Brown Health in Chicago, who, you know, checks my blood pressure, my cholesterol, make sure everything is healthy before they add that testosterone into my body.
Alex Cox:How do you get testosterone inside of you?
Mattie Cox:Well, I do a subcutaneous injection, which means I take a needle and I stick it into the fat of my tummy. There are also intramuscular injections, which is where someone takes a needle and basically stabs their thigh, and it goes directly into the muscle. And then there is another one where, you get stabbed in the fat of your butt. And that is also, subcutaneous, which means it goes into the fat tissue.
Alex Cox:For you, the reason that you do the tummy one is because you are very tiny. And if it was my body, I would probably do the butt shot or the intramuscular straight into the thigh shot because I have way more squish.
Mattie Cox:Exactly. Yeah.
Alex Cox:Can we talk about the very first time you went to see your endocrinologist at Howard Brown and how you were pretty okay? I was terrified.
Mattie Cox:I was okay because I feel like this is the first time that I did more research than you.
Alex Cox:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Mattie Cox:And what really put me at ease, and both of us at ease, I think, is that she mentioned that she had patients that were bipolar. She knows how to manage the changes. So she's like, we're gonna put you on a low weekly dose so that you don't experience the hormone crashes of someone who gets it biweekly or every 3 months or something like that, and we'll, you know, adjust if your mood is out of whack. But basically, she was like, here you go. Have any concerns?
Mattie Cox:And, that was it. I started testosterone that day.
Alex Cox:I remember being so scared so excited and so scared for your first appointment. And I've just heard so many horror stories about doctors telling people about hormone replacement therapy. And I really liked how she said, yes. I have many patients who have a severe mental illness, other patients who are bipolar, and we just adjust with the changes. And, like, I remember I I was worried that you were going to have mood changes and, more outbursts.
Mattie Cox:I've had mood swings, but only when I've had my period. My mood swing has been the worst and I've had it twice since I've been on t, so that still sucks and is a regular thing. But, I think my mood swings are the biggest one that happens and other than that, I'm pretty stable.
Alex Cox:I went into this with a lot of misinformation that most people have that the testosterone or tea, the most people call it, would make you super moody, would make you more toxic in a masculine way. Like, you'd put on an Ed Hardy shirt the same day and be like, yo. Sup? And
Mattie Cox:Which is hilarious. But a lot of people have that misconception.
Alex Cox:Mhmm. And the doctor that you had is an absolute outlier as is Howard Brown, which is a free clinic, but they also take health insurance. So if you're in Chicago and you're queer, Howard Brown, awesome. Check him check him out. And our appointment would I and I say our because you made me feel really involved in the process, which I don't think you had to do.
Mattie Cox:Well, I mean, you were anxious, and I wanted to put you at ease. And, also, you would be there taking care of me if any drastic medical things had happened. I basically had the easiest I was very lucky with my medical transition. It went very smoothly. And still to this day, I have the same doctor, and she is amazing.
Mattie Cox:Like, I have had no periods of instability because of my testosterone.
Alex Cox:I'm actually ashamed to say that a part of the reason I was so scared was because I thought that I would be kind of losing my partner's body that I had known for so long. And I don't mean in, like, a gross sexual way, but it's essentially second puberty. And it's not just physical changes or overt physical changes. Like, your scent changes, and the way you carry yourself changes. And I just feel like such a jackass now.
Mattie Cox:Here's the thing. People's insides, their personality does not change, especially if they know what to expect. Like, I feel like that's a misconception with a lot of people, and that's just really not like, your scent does change. I feel like all the changes are so gradual that you really had time to get used to them. And that's not how it happens with everybody.
Mattie Cox:But my first puberty didn't hit me really hard, so neither did my second puberty, and that it happened gradually, so you were able to accept the changes as they came along. Am I right?
Alex Cox:Yeah. But it still doesn't feel okay to me. I mean, everybody's different in how they react to their partner transitioning in any way. Like, it's like you said, you are still you, but it's, you know, not the same as, like, changing a job or something like that. But it was a major life thing, and I wasn't as prepared for it as I thought I would be.
Alex Cox:But I don't think I needed to because they were so gradual. Yeah.
Mattie Cox:So next week, I hit 2 months on t. Yay. And, like, stuff has definitely been changing. I've been surprised because I'm on a really low dose. And so far, I'm happy with it.
Mattie Cox:Let's talk about the basic changes.
Alex Cox:Yeah. 1st, let's get into your voice.
Mattie Cox:My voice. That was one of the first things that changed. I was so excited because my voice gave me a ton of dysphoria because it was it was really high. For reference, when we first started recording 2 years ago, I was 2 months on t, I could hit a high e flat, which is almost the highest note at the end of Let It Go. I'm I'm gonna use, you know, just let me go with, these song references for how I gauge my vocals and my voice changes.
Alex Cox:Mhmm.
Mattie Cox:And now, 2 years on t. The highest note I can hit without straining is a b 4, which means I can sing most Steven Universe songs, and that's about it. And I love singing, and it was actually, singing and realizing what songs I couldn't sing anymore as my voice lowered really gave me gender euphoria and confidence. Because I was like, oh, crap. Like, now I can sing male parts in songs, and this this feels incredible.
Alex Cox:For a while, when we would do our dumb, like, karaoke in the car, I noticed that you were hesitant to lower your voice. It was almost like you were learning to walk again, but you were learning to sing again because you felt like you couldn't hit those low notes. And now you're belting out the Steven Universe songs.
Mattie Cox:Yeah. And it was especially when my voice started cracking at, like, 3 months. I was like, yes. I can sound like a prepubescent boy when I sing. So 2 months on T
Alex Cox:Mhmm.
Mattie Cox:My biggest source of dysphoria was my voice Mhmm. Because it hadn't dropped yet.
Alex Cox:Mhmm.
Mattie Cox:And now a year later, it's still something that prevents me from being read as male Mhmm. Which is crazy, because my voice started dropping. 3 months, it cracked. And then it it's started to settle. It still fluctuates a lot.
Mattie Cox:But when I'm relaxed, it's lower, and I can be completely read as male. And lately, I've been having a lot of dysphoria. For me, that is when I'm read as female is when I my voice is higher.
Alex Cox:It's also now that I'm thinking of it, it's kinda bonkers that we're doing a podcast where you have to listen to yourself, and constantly it you know, I well, that's an interesting thing where people have just probably heard your voice as it's really high. When you're editing your voice, does it enhance dysphoria or does it make you feel better? Because I would assume, I guess, that seeing the progress you've made and knowing that people other folks can hear the difference is helpful.
Mattie Cox:Yeah. It makes me feel a lot better. Like, listening to stuff from when I was 2 months on t, and then it's, like, very progressive because we've been recording for the past year. So just like I'll go to a recording from when I was 5 months on t, and it's not this deep, or I'll go to one when I was 8 months on t, and I'd say my voice has stopped changing. Body changes.
Mattie Cox:If if we're going if we're going step by step, the voice changes first, then you get lots of oil and acne. And I already had adult acne, so I was super worried about this negative side effect. Like, honestly, this was one of my biggest negative side effects and has been for the past 2 years. Mhmm. However, I discovered ProactiveMD and holy heck.
Mattie Cox:2 years on t now, I barely get cystic acne. Like, I feel so much more confident about my face, about everything. And I know it doesn't work for everybody, but, like, get a get up on that. Like, right when you start testosterone, make sure you're doing some acne scrubs because let me tell you, it'll make you feel so much better.
Alex Cox:Like with anybody who has changes in their skin, as you had higher and higher levels of T in your body, you had to try new things. And it seems like the reason that your face has cleared up is because you're kind of ending your second puberty and your skin is sort of stagnant, you know, where you have less acne than me now.
Mattie Cox:I mean, yeah. I still have to keep up with the routine, but, between 1 to 2 years is when the production of oil, like, lessens. And that's thank God, man. Thank God. Let's talk about changes that you didn't expect me to have on tea.
Alex Cox:Changes I didn't expect you to have on t.
Mattie Cox:Yeah. What has happened this past year that you were not expecting after coming out of that first appointment?
Alex Cox:My the thing I didn't expect, I suppose
Mattie Cox:I didn't expect to start getting chin hairs at 3 months on t.
Alex Cox:Why didn't you expect that?
Mattie Cox:Because I didn't expect to, like now I have to shave if I don't want a little, Shaggy from Scooby Doo beard. I have to shave every week. I just didn't expect to notice any facial hair growth until way farther, because first puberty was pretty mild for me. So I didn't expect second puberty to, to grant me with chin hair so early on.
Alex Cox:Well, you're just a hairy boy. Aren't you?
Mattie Cox:3 months on t, I had 3 tiny little chin hairs and a scumstache. How did you feel about that, Alex?
Alex Cox:No. No. No. No. And and this is something that was another internal struggle because I thought that this was just transphobia.
Alex Cox:Because at first, I was really excited for your body hair because it made you so so happy. But then, like, you would kiss me on the cheek and I'd be like, ah, no. Just because it would tickle. And I finally realized as you have more and more, body hair, but also you have more of a little beard type thing going on sometimes.
Mattie Cox:I have, like, 50 little stubbly hairs on my chin that I'm so proud of. I am so so proud of them.
Alex Cox:Like, I I was like, oh, cis people feel the same way. They they don't like it when their boyfriends or whatever kiss them and it's all scratchy. So now when you you have to basically shave every day or every other day. So when you need it, when you're having that dysphoria still, I'm like, yeah. Go for it.
Alex Cox:Or if you wanna piss people off who are transphobic, absolutely. But most of the time, I'm like, please shave. We're going out to dinner with my parents. Come on.
Mattie Cox:And, yeah, I don't mind it. And it tickles.
Alex Cox:I'm wondering, like, we've talked about this and you probably won't be on T forever. Do you think, like, once you get your voice to a certain spot, you're gonna stop?
Mattie Cox:That's possible. I wonder if it'll ever
Alex Cox:stay really deep. Well, that's one of the permanent changes.
Mattie Cox:Right. But it's kind of, like, flexible right now, and I know it takes for most people, it takes, like, a whole year for it to, like, settle and be really deep. Sometimes it takes longer.
Mattie Cox:Yeah. So I don't know.
Mattie Cox:I haven't really, like, thought about it too much.
Mattie Cox:It's really helpful that you respect when I'm having a bad dysphoria day that I just need those tiny, little, gin hairs. And I am super excited because I recently just started noticing hair in new places, and I'm getting fuzzy hair all along my jawline now and, in places that I didn't have it before. So, like, all the way up my legs to my thighs. I've got a decent happy trail and, like, a little bit a little bit more of tummy hair. And, like, I felt so stagnant from year 1 to year 2 because a lot a lot visibly, doesn't usually change unless you get facial hair.
Mattie Cox:And my dad's not a super hairy dude. It takes him a very long time to get a beard. So, just seeing this little bit, these tiny changes and noticing them has made me feel, like, amazing.
Alex Cox:When you initially went on T, it also felt kind of strange because throughout our relationship, I've always looked a bit more androgynous than you except for the fact that I have hips and boobs. Like, I am a total yeti. It's completely genetic, the same way that trans folks experience hormones differently. Everybody experiences hormones differently. And I come from a very Polish family.
Alex Cox:All of the women in my family are super hairy. We have thick hair. I have to pluck my chin hairs basically every day. My eyebrows are huge. I would have I don't know if I would get a unibrow, but I don't wanna find out.
Alex Cox:So it felt like I I almost wanted to, like, just transfer all of my tea to you and be like, here, take god, please take it all. Like, I tried to remove all body hair. I wish I could remove my head hair. It gets too thick, and I get too hot and sweaty, and I don't like it.
Mattie Cox:But I feel so that's like a lot of trans people though. They're like, here, let me let me give you my boobs, and you give me you give me your Johnson. Like, that's just a thing. Tradesies.
Alex Cox:Why do you prefer stomach hair over well, I mean, I guess I know.
Mattie Cox:Because it's cute. Because it's just little fuzzies. I don't I don't have very dark hair.
Alex Cox:So a happy trail, basically?
Mattie Cox:Yeah. But I it's not like a happy trail. It's like a, oh, look. There's some little fuzz right there.
Alex Cox:Exactly. A happy trail. Oh, look at
Mattie Cox:it so cute. It's a little fuzzy fuzz. Oh.
Alex Cox:That's a it's basically a happy trail.
Mattie Cox:Can we talk about now how almost 2 years ago, we were sitting here in the some office parking lot, we're back here again, and we were speculating if I would still be on tea.
Alex Cox:Mhmm.
Mattie Cox:And here we are recording in the studio at some office, and I'm 2 years on T.
Alex Cox:Yeah. I I I was about to say that I'm surprised, but I'm not. At the time when you were 1 year auntie, I didn't think you would still be taking it now. Did you?
Mattie Cox:No. But that revolved around top surgery. Top surgery, which is getting your breasts removed. There's different types, we'll get into that stuff later, but it's usually the second step in medically transitioning that, FTMs or non binary folks go for because it is a big, part of physical dysphoria.
Alex Cox:There are more and more people who just do one or the other. They just do they just inject testosterone or they just get top surgery or not at all. We've talked about most of the changes that go with testosterone, deeper voice, body hair, fat redistribution. What are some clitoral downstairs happenings that we won't go into today?
Mattie Cox:We'll make a whole episode about bottom dysphoria. Yep. Or at least part of an episode.
Alex Cox:What are some of the changes you wanted to happen on Tee that didn't? Because it's different for everyone.
Mattie Cox:Well, not necessarily what I wanted to happen that didn't, but what I didn't push myself to do. So I wanted to build muscle, because I'm tiny, and I don't mind being tiny, but just to be healthier. So I just started a 30 day workout program, and while I am still on t, hopefully for another year, I would like to build up a routine and have some muscle. And that was actually my goal at the end of 1 year on t, and I just didn't push myself enough. So that's something that I'm looking forward to and hoping to happen because it'll make my body a little less androgynous, and that's where I've been experiencing my strongest bout of dysphoria right now.
Alex Cox:Do you think that's also where people clock you the most, is how androgynous you look? Because your voice is deeper now. You have your hairline is more masculine. But do you think your body shape is what makes some people still read you as a woman?
Mattie Cox:I think so, and I only think it's because, like, typically men have that Dorito body shape. That that's how they describe it.
Alex Cox:Like Yeah. You're right. Yeah.
Mattie Cox:Yeah. So I think, ultimately, I would just like to have some broader shoulders to fill out my clothes more. Because not only would that make me feel better mentally, but it's it's making my body healthier. Like, I'm not working out to the point of, oh, I wanna be buff. I'm working out to the point of, like, oh, I want a healthier body.
Alex Cox:So once you become a Dorito, you're probably going to have a
Mattie Cox:Which flavor?
Alex Cox:Oh, which flavor would you be?
Mattie Cox:I only like the original ones. Oh, What flavor would I be? You're weird. You like cool ranch. I
Alex Cox:well, we mhmm. I am weird. I don't know what that says about the flavor cool ranch, but I'll take it. I'll take it. So once you've achieved your Dorito status and you have top surgery, what are some other changes that you would like to see happen?
Mattie Cox:I would like a little more facial hair just to see if I even like it. Like, I just I just want to experience it, and then if I hate it, I can just shave it all off. You know?
Alex Cox:I really like how you've been playing with your gender because, you know, you while I know you don't wanna have an androgynous body, you will still dress in a more androgynous way. And you sometimes you will present as very masculine. Like, you won't shave for a couple of days and you've got, like it's it's not messy. It's it's it's good stubble. I still don't like when it's mushed against my face, but I I like how you experiment with your
Mattie Cox:body. Yeah. When I'm
Alex Cox:That sounded dirty, but No.
Mattie Cox:No. When I'm feeling more confident unless dysphoric. Like, even the summer, I was like, oh, I'm gonna I'm gonna try getting a pink shirt, like, and I'm gonna wear, like, light pastel colors. And, yeah. I do like being more androgynous.
Mattie Cox:Like wearing clothes, when I first started transitioning, I would avoid those clothes a 100% because I didn't want to be clocked as a lesbian. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I just didn't wanna experience that anymore.
Alex Cox:You heard it here first, folks. Matthew Cox hates lesbians. Sorry.
Mattie Cox:That is not true. I identified as a lesbian for a very long time. But, yeah. So now I'm more comfortable playing with my clothing and stuff like that.
Alex Cox:At the
Mattie Cox:end of the our first appointment, you and I were still wondering if I would be on tea after a year, if once my voice dropped, I would just be done.
Alex Cox:I don't I don't think you were going to I didn't expect you to stop. I expected you to reevaluate honestly, I I expected what we are currently doing now. Well, what you're doing and what we're talking about, which is, okay. Am I going to continue with tea? Am I going going to continue with the same amount?
Alex Cox:How is my transition going? Kinda kind of like that. Actually, now now I do know what surprised me. I think I did a ton of research. And sometimes, you are surprised by something more than I am.
Alex Cox:And I'm surprised about still the the lack of I don't wanna say the lack of trust, but your I am surprised by how hesitant you are to share certain things with me unrelated to top surgery. Like what? Just your anxieties about your shots. If a shot made you dysphoric in some way. Honestly, sharing dysphoria with me in general, which you've been a lot better about in the past few weeks or so.
Alex Cox:But it's almost sometimes, like, I realize you're having dysphoria you're you're dysphoric before you know it. Kind of like how I know you're hangry before you know it. After you have top surgery, if you go off testosterone, what sort of changes will your body go through?
Mattie Cox:Well, the change I'm really not looking forward to is that my face shape will change because of fat redistribution. So my my face might look less masculine, and that that's why I'm waffling because I I don't care about the body fat redistribution because I've never had, like, a high percentage of body fat. And if I start to build muscle now, it'll be easier to maintain it. Mhmm. And my voice will still stay low, I mean, my acne stuff.
Mattie Cox:The the two things that I'm dreading the most and that would tip me over to keep being on testosterone would be my facial changes and my period starting again. Like and I, obviously, I know I could go on birth control. There are ways to avoid that. Mhmm. But, yeah, that's that's what I would dread the most.
Alex Cox:It's different for everybody, but what are, like I don't wanna call them consequences, but if you're on T for the rest of your life, what will the side effects be?
Mattie Cox:I would need a hysterectomy, which I am terrified of, which is removing your uterus and ovaries. And, I mean, going bald is also one, which I don't know how I would look bald, so I'm not sure how I feel about that. And then another one is you can develop, like, typical cis male health problems. So high blood pressure, risk for heart disease, which already runs in my family. But there have been guys that, there's very little studies, but there have been guys that have been on T for, you know, a decade
Alex Cox:Mhmm.
Mattie Cox:At least. And those are those are honestly the the big ones.
Alex Cox:It's hard to say because, one, again, everybody's different. 2, there are so few folks who have been on testosterone or so few women who have been on estrogen for decades decades because either they've been closeted and haven't been able to go to a doctor or they are younger like you. I know you think you're old at 29, but, you know, you you didn't start taking hormones before your first puberty. So, it's gonna be okay, though. Don't worry.
Mattie Cox:You know, honestly, I'm not. I'm looking forward to right now, I'm looking forward to getting fit and top surgery.
Alex Cox:I find it amusing that you're really down on fitness right now. I I mean, I guess it makes me happy in one sense because you're less focused on the aspects of your body that you can't change that make you dysphoric. But you know the rest of the world has the same issues. Right?
Mattie Cox:Nick no. Of of course I do. And that's why, when I start comparing myself to other trans guys who transition faster like, some guys will have full beards at 11 months on t. And like I said, it's different for everyone. But working out for me is is not all about getting a more masculine body.
Mattie Cox:It's really about, like, I haven't been doing anything but walking for my health. And it's more about, I am gonna be 30 soon, and I want to be in good health. Like, honest to God, that's what it is.
Alex Cox:I know. And I'm so proud of you for it. And it's interesting too how you are actually still in the best shape of your life, not because it's it's not that tea magically made you healthier, but before, you didn't really take care of your body because you, I mean, for lack of a better word, you you hated it. So it was kind of always in the back of your mind.
Mattie Cox:Also, I was so focused on my mental illness, that I feel like I didn't put my bodily health first.
Alex Cox:Right. Now there's way more of a focus on body and mind health that, you know, I I'm also bipolar, and the 2 go hand in hand and sort of the same way, like, hormones go hand in hand with your other physical health.
Mattie Cox:Honestly, I feel like this past year we're both the healthiest we've been because we've been focusing on mind and body health and that, like, we should applaud ourselves for that. Like, holy crap.
Alex Cox:Or oh. Let's high five. Yeah.
Mattie Cox:Let's do it closer to the mic.
Alex Cox:Oh, yeah. Good radio. I'm really proud of you.
Mattie Cox:I'm proud of you too.
Alex Cox:We really appreciate you checking out the 3rd episode of 2 headed girl. If you're enjoying the show, please tell a friend or 2. You can find us at patreon.com/2headedgirlfm, which supports the show and the cost of trans health care. The music you heard in this episode is from Seth Boyer's album Half Lonely. Special thanks to our friends, Cathy Campbell, Margaret Dax, Mark Bramhill, Cara Fagan, Kevin Budnick, Merlin Mann, and a very special thanks to Quinn Rose who mixed this episode.
Alex Cox:If you'd like to hear more, head over to 2headedgirl.fm or subscribe anywhere you find your podcasts, including our favorite independent app Overcast made by Renaissance Fair enthusiast, Marco Armand. Please reach out to tell us what you think, ask us questions, or send us some good gay shit on Twitter at 2 headed girl fm. Thanks again for listening. Hang in there and take care of each other. Oh, if well, if I could be a Pokemon, I would be a Charmander.
Alex Cox:But
Mattie Cox:Because you haven't fully evolved into your super Alex state?
Alex Cox:I guess so. I think I'd be a Charmeleon, but I would want to marry a Ditto.
Mattie Cox:I feel like
Alex Cox:we should
Mattie Cox:we should debunk like, that needs some therapy right there.
Alex Cox:They could transform
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