Episode 2
· 32:15
Cool. So I'm hangry, and I'm tired. And I am so not ready to do this, but we're gonna talk about coming out. I'm Maddie Cox.
Alex Cox:And I'm Alex Cox.
Mattie Cox:This is a show about gender, our minds, and transitions.
Alex Cox:Welcome to 2 Headed Girl.
Mattie Cox:This is about my parents. When I first came out to them as gay, it didn't go super great. So at 18, you can imagine how then as an adult coming out as trans, I was very nervous about it. I waited till I was 9 months on t before I came out to my parents, and I did it in definitely not the greatest way and told them over a text message. And I had wanted to tell them sooner, but I just didn't want to stress them out.
Mattie Cox:But I'm also an only child that I wanted to keep, like, in touch with them. And it kinda went exactly the same as it went when I came out as gay. Like, my dad was, alright with it, not right away, but pretty soon. And it took my mom a while. And I know I shouldn't make excuses, but, like, either spend time with my parents or always have a shitty time when I go over there.
Mattie Cox:You know? So it's some give and take. So I sent this message after Alex and I had gone to London for our friend's wedding. And I decided all of a sudden that I was just gonna come out over text, which actually is how I came out to Alex too, just coming out via text message instead of in person all over the place. This I wrote on July 1, 2018 at 6 PM.
Mattie Cox:It says, every time I visit you, there is something I want to tell you but I don't know how. It is not a bad thing, not to me or Alex, but I am not sure how you will receive it. For the past 9 months or so, since October 2018, I have been taking testosterone injections and have been out as transgender at work and to Alex's family. This means I am transitioning from female to male. I did not make the choice to start hormones lightly and had multiple discussions with my therapist.
Mattie Cox:I don't really expect you to understand or accept me. I guess that's why I've been afraid to tell you. I feel so much more confident and outgoing. I have more friends and social lies more than I have in years because I feel more comfortable in my own skin. To everyone else, I go by the name Matt, which is my chosen name, and I go by he him pronouns.
Mattie Cox:That is why my voice has been different and I haven't been shaving. There's so much to tell you and explain, but, ultimately, I am happy and healthy, and that is the most important thing. I want to help you understand and think we should talk more once you have processed this information. I ended with, you may call me tomorrow as long as you are calm. I love you very much.
Alex Cox:One thing a lot of people don't think about is how trans and genderqueer folks just constantly need to come out to people around them. Because it's not like sexuality, you know, unless you you wanna do one of your coworkers, which I would advise against, you don't really need to talk about it. Whereas gender, it's kind of always going to be there.
Mattie Cox:Unfortunately, because we live in a society that's so gender binary.
Alex Cox:Yeah. Can you explain what being stealth means? I I didn't know what this meant until a couple years ago.
Mattie Cox:Being stealth means that you don't want anyone to know you're trans. So if you don't so if you pass as, say, a cis man or a cis woman and you then you don't want anyone to know that you transitioned or are transitioning.
Alex Cox:And I know that it's it the word passing is kind of really controversial. Right? I don't know.
Mattie Cox:Yeah. It's kinda gross because it makes it seem like you have to conform to either gender. You know? Mhmm. Like, there's only 2 genders, and you have to conform.
Mattie Cox:That's what it makes it seem like. But, unfortunately, I feel like if you don't present as a binary gender, it's hard to be stealth.
Alex Cox:It's almost the same thing as, you know, being out of the closet. When I came out as gay, well, it's it I didn't even really come out as gay. It just the gay happened. Like, the queerness just slowly
Mattie Cox:The gay event.
Alex Cox:Yeah. The gay it it just slowly seeped in to, like, all portions of my life. Even then, you find yourself still having to come out to people. And there is also an element of being able to pass straight. And if anybody has seen me in life, even when I was had longer hair and looked like a more traditional girl or woman, I could not pass as straight.
Alex Cox:I could be making out with a guy and people would be like, that's not bad. At least bi. Yeah. Ex exactly. And I I don't know.
Alex Cox:I've I've been lucky enough that all of the harassment and bigotry I've dealt with has never been at work. I mean, families and and strangers and friends, like, that sucks. But I've never I I've always been safe at work. And with you, you've always been super out and proud when it came to, yes, this is my partner, Alex, and all of that. But can you talk about what it's like sort of having to come out as trans and basically being outed as trans at work?
Mattie Cox:So I wanna talk about a pet store. So my Social Security card didn't have my new legal name on it, and my driver's license did say, Matthew Cox, you know. So it basically outed me because I had to apply using my social security card. Like at most jobs they have to like scan it so you can get pay your taxes and all that kind of stuff. So I was outed to the hiring manager, but it was kinda kind of nice because it was just the manager, whereas like everyone didn't have to know, whereas at my previous job, I was tran I started transitioning after I had already been hired there, so everyone knew.
Mattie Cox:Luckily, it was a safe space. Everyone was cool about it. But, like, this job, it was like, well, if I wanted to be stealth or needed to be for my own safety, it wouldn't have been able to happen.
Alex Cox:Yeah. The the majority of people who I know who are stealth in certain communities, they move within. It's for safety. And and there's nothing wrong with wanting to be stealth. I don't want anyone to feel ashamed of that.
Mattie Cox:It's interesting that, transitioning, you have to come out to so many more people, like, more than just your your family and friends. And maybe that's, like, a misconception because legally, for filling out taxes and for, like, registering for driver's insurance and stuff like that, our, lease for our apartment, all of that had my previous name on it. So there were so many people I had to come out to that I didn't even think about.
Alex Cox:I assumed you weren't going to come out to anybody at your new job just because, you know, logistics.
Mattie Cox:Well, for a little bit of backstory, I did have to come out because my trainer today said, you know, this dog is more comfortable around women, so he might be a little skittish around you. So just be careful, like, go slow. He doesn't really know me very well either, but he's more comfortable around women. And this dog warmed up to me really fast. And this is something that happened when I worked for a previous dog walking company is dogs in the notes where it would be like only like men would be really great around me, and the owners would be surprised.
Mattie Cox:So just like as an offhanded thing, I was like, oh, well, he's probably comfortable because I'm trans. And, like, that's all I said. And she didn't make a big deal about it, and I wasn't, like, expecting to come out, but I was like, well, I want her to know that this dog is gonna be safe. You know what I mean? Like, or the dog feels safer probably because I'm trans.
Mattie Cox:Does that make sense?
Alex Cox:So basically, a dog outed you.
Mattie Cox:Yeah. And it's happened before.
Alex Cox:I I call bullcrap on that though because we have 2 cats who hate men, but we have a lot of friends who are trans. And it doesn't matter if they're a man or a woman because trans men are men and trans women are women. And they still like trans women and are still like towards trans guys. So I feel like pets and animals are are are proof that there is no binary, be because maybe that's so maybe that is why the dog was okay with you because you are not on exactly one end of the gender spectrum. You know?
Mattie Cox:Yeah. Maybe it's just the way I carry myself.
Alex Cox:Mhmm. Not like a controlling asshole.
Mattie Cox:But also men just are taught to, like, take up more space, like, physically and stuff like that, you know? So maybe and maybe sometimes that's a little intimidating. I've definitely, been putting this recording off because it is probably one of the most important things to happen in the last 2 years other than getting married. But, I came out to Alex over text message, which is crazy and sounds crazy because we have a great relationship. But, I had just been, like, sitting around, stewing in all my emotions, contemplating it, thinking about it for, like, 3 weeks.
Mattie Cox:There's that moment I feel that most trans people have. I can't can't speak for all where they doubt if they are trans or if they're trans enough or if it's all just in their head, if it's gonna go away, if they're gay, whatever. And Alex and I have a friend who, started transitioning a while ago. So I reached out to them and I was like, hey. So do you think I'm trans?
Mattie Cox:Basically. And, talk through all my fears and stuff like that and came up with and well, use and use them as a sounding board to come up with what I was gonna say to Alex. It sounds silly, but it felt like a like a safer you know what? No. It isn't silly.
Mattie Cox:It was a safer space before I threw, like, not a wrench, but threw, like, a big thing into a very long relationship that had existed differently. I don't know. We had always identified as as gay as lesbians. So for me to come out as trans, like, it was a big deal. You know?
Mattie Cox:Obviously. It was my, am I trans enough moment? And I think going through that really gave me, like, the courage to come out and change the dynamic of our marriage and our relationship and our friendship because Alex and I are best friends first and married second, which sounds cheesy, but it's true. And we say it to each other all the time. So I needed to just be really sure before I came out to my best friend.
Mattie Cox:And I after talking to our friend, I felt secure and valid. And I decided that I was ready to come out to Alex. And, of course, I did it in a huge epic spewing of my thoughts and feelings for, like, you know, a dozen novel length text messages. And Alex was at work. They were busy.
Mattie Cox:And then just all of these messages went through. And I think I just stood there, like, typing them rapidly, not even thinking, and then just waited. And, of course, the response took a long time. And by that time, I had gone back to work, so we couldn't even, like, talk about it back and forth. And I think I had been on a closing shift too, so I wouldn't get home till, like, 11 at night to talk about it.
Mattie Cox:But I just remember being at a point where I had to, like, gush all of my feelings and emotions out. And, of course, once I got home, we talked about it for, like, 3 hours and sat down. And I'm sure there were tears and lots of hugging. And I know it went well because I'm here and we're still married and, we're together.
Alex Cox:Since this episode is mostly about coming out of the closet, I kind of wanted an explanation from you as to how you came out to me and why.
Mattie Cox:Oh, I don't really have an explanation.
Alex Cox:How did you come out to me?
Mattie Cox:I came out to you over text message. Why? Because I just couldn't hold it inside anymore.
Alex Cox:You know what I mean. Why Why?
Mattie Cox:Because I was scared of changing the dynamics of our marriage and our relationship.
Alex Cox:You're still avoiding the main question, which is over text. Why over text?
Mattie Cox:That is literally the answer, because I was afraid of how you would react to me coming out in front of you, how it would change the relationship between us and the dynamic of our marriage. Like, genuinely, I was afraid of those emotions.
Alex Cox:No. I know you well, obviously, you were afraid of those. Anybody would be afraid of that, but I'm but you could have come out in front of like, you could have talked to me with your mouth words, but you didn't. You sent me a text. You sent me a text during the Apple keynote when they were releasing the iPhone 10.
Mattie Cox:Multiple texts, not just one.
Alex Cox:Well, you know what I mean.
Mattie Cox:Well, don't make it just sound like
Alex Cox:makes it sound better if if Well,
Mattie Cox:it makes it sound better that I, like, put in a bunch of thought into it and feelings as opposed to just, hey, I'm trans. That's what I
Alex Cox:mean. You could've sent me like, you could've sent even an email or, like, sending it to me when we weren't both working. Like, I just don't understand. You you sent it during the middle of the day, and you were at a day job where you couldn't, like, take many breaks to go talk about this.
Mattie Cox:Because my answer is literally because I was scared because it would change our 6 year relationship and our 2 year marriage. I'm not sure how that isn't, like, a concrete answer. Like, that's a
Alex Cox:big would've told their their well
Mattie Cox:And most and most relationships when the partner comes out as trans end. So how did you think, like
Alex Cox:But how it's how is sending it over a text message better? How did you, like
Mattie Cox:Because I didn't have to deal with that fear upfront in my face. To be fair, I came out to everyone over the Internet or phone via text or message. So, you're not special.
Alex Cox:That's honestly, I mean, like, you kid, but that's that's the thing is I've I've hope, at least, I've been nothing but supportive of you finding yourself and you go like, I I don't know. We we
Mattie Cox:Well, of course, you have. I think I was just going through a really emotional time at work that day. And the way all the cards landed, I just decided right in that moment I had to come out. And I've been known in the past for being impulsive and making impulsive important decisions.
Alex Cox:I think it was selfish. How so? Because you bombarded me. You even just said that it wasn't just one text. You bombarded me with basically a letter as a text message during the work hours when you knew that you wouldn't be able to respond to me.
Alex Cox:Like, you would not have had the chance to respond to me even if you wanted to.
Mattie Cox:I actually do think I I asked for a 15 minute break so we could talk a little longer.
Alex Cox:15 minutes.
Mattie Cox:In the moment, when I was wrapped up in my emotions, you know, I wasn't thinking. Like, I wasn't trying to be selfish, obviously. I just spewed everything out whereas, yes, in retrospect, and I think right after like that night when we had a conversation, I was like, yes, it was selfish. But in that moment, obviously, I wasn't like, gee, I wanna hurt Alex. Let's be selfish and come out this way.
Mattie Cox:Like there was no honestly, honest to god, there was no planning in the form of how I would come out.
Alex Cox:I know you weren't thinking that you wanted to hurt me, and a lot of people say that there's no wrong way to come out, and I strongly disagree.
Mattie Cox:Okay. But how is me coming out hurting you? See, that's that's where the line gets dicey. Like, the way I came out might have hurt you.
Alex Cox:The way you came out hurt me.
Mattie Cox:Right. But me coming out didn't hurt you. No. Let's clarify.
Alex Cox:Yeah. Of course not. No. But you deciding specifically
Mattie Cox:I didn't decide. That's what I'm saying. I didn't decide.
Alex Cox:You have agency over your actions, though.
Mattie Cox:When I'm really emotional, I don't think that I make smart decisions.
Alex Cox:I agree with that. Neither do I. But you knew that there was going to be fallout. You knew that we were going to talk about this later. It wasn't going to be, hey, I'm trans.
Alex Cox:And then that just we would go, with our lives without ever acknowledging it. I like, fallout sounds bad, but I mean, there was fallout because you texted me.
Mattie Cox:There wasn't fallout. We sat down and talked about it. There was no negative reaction that came from and maybe that's because you were being considerate. And now 2 years later, you're like, hey. I had negative reaction, which is fair.
Mattie Cox:Like, that's completely valid.
Alex Cox:You texted me.
Mattie Cox:I know.
Alex Cox:When we have had even face to face conversations, there are times where you have a million follow-up questions, rightly so, and you think, oh, why didn't you tell me this right away? And I I I basically didn't have any time to process it. All I had were those words that you sent, and they were so carefully crafted too in a way that No.
Mattie Cox:They weren't. What do you mean? It was like an emotional explosion. They were not carefully crafted. Don't lie.
Alex Cox:I'm not lying. They felt emotionally they they didn't feel like an emotional explosion.
Mattie Cox:A writer. I'm better at I am. I'm better at writing.
Alex Cox:Exactly. They were crafted. I'm reading these words. I can't react because I'm sitting in a room with a bunch of people watching the iPhone keynote.
Mattie Cox:It's not like it was a work meeting. You could have just left to go to the bathroom.
Alex Cox:Might have well, it I work basically in tech. It was basically a work meeting.
Mattie Cox:You were all standing around watching the television. I saw a picture of it. It was not a meeting.
Alex Cox:We were all smooshed together watching it on the TV, and I excused myself and just went and sat on the dirty bathroom floor, head in my hands, not upset that you were trans, but upset because this is how you decided to tell me. What's upsetting me more actually is you saying that you kind of still would have done it this it seems like you would still have done it the same way. Would you have changed me?
Mattie Cox:I was the same person to me. I wouldn't have been like, if I time traveled back and was this person I would have come out to your face. If I was still the same person 2 years ago with all of my coming out experiences going very poorly, then yeah, I would have done the same thing. Because all of my prior coming out experiences had gone poorly. So why would I think that that would go any different?
Mattie Cox:Especially because so many partners and relationships, when their significant other comes out as strands, they just end. They're just done.
Alex Cox:That's why it's so upsetting is because you see me as one of those people.
Mattie Cox:I didn't see you as one of those people. I looked at the facts. Okay. But that's I wasn't like, oh, this is going to be Alex. I was like, these are the facts.
Mattie Cox:This is what happens. Like, why are we special?
Alex Cox:No.
Mattie Cox:What do
Alex Cox:you mean why are we special?
Mattie Cox:Like, why in that moment would I have thought, hey. We're different than all these other people. This is gonna work.
Alex Cox:But if you're not going to try, then what's the point at all?
Mattie Cox:Because Of course, I tried. Of course, we tried. Like, we're here. Yes. We tried.
Alex Cox:There are other couples who went through the same thing and did stay together, but you went with the majority. And you thought that I was going to be, like, the majority of, basically, previously straight cis couples, and we're queer as fuck. So why did you think
Mattie Cox:Well, no. People in queer relationships, when their partner comes out as trans, like I know. We identified as lesbians. You hate men. I do hate
Alex Cox:men. I still hate men.
Mattie Cox:So wouldn't it be super scary to me? Like, could can you briefly imagine being in my shoes and being me?
Alex Cox:Yes. And I'm not saying that I wouldn't be scared. I would be terrified. But I would hope that I would have thought better of you and told you in person. I probably would have picked a a date and a time or rather I would have picked a date and a time.
Alex Cox:And you know what? Honestly, I probably would have ended up blurting it out while we were watching TV or, like, playing with the cats. But to send a text message and didn't you consult one of our friends too?
Mattie Cox:Not on how I should come out, on if I should come out. Like, if it was the right time is my answer of I was scared. Does that hold any weight?
Alex Cox:Of course it does. But
Mattie Cox:There were a lot of contributing factors to it too.
Alex Cox:I understand. But unless there was a contributing factor of there was no way to physically talk to me in the next 24 hours, I don't I don't know.
Mattie Cox:I'm not saying it wasn't bad. I'm just saying I literally was gonna come out in person that night, but I couldn't like I didn't think I could handle it. Not because of you, but because of me. I didn't think I could handle coming out in person, like I would get too scared and stop, and it needed to be done. So I did it in the only way I could handle right then.
Alex Cox:I feel like I just dragged you over the coals.
Mattie Cox:That's okay. I don't feel like you did. I feel like we worked out some stuff.
Alex Cox:Yeah. I I wanna give you a hug.
Mattie Cox:I would like that.
Alex Cox:But I don't I can't get up. I'm monitoring the levels.
Mattie Cox:Okay. I'm gonna walk around the table and give you a hug now.
Alex Cox:Thank you for that narration. Oh, look look great fully work.
Mattie Cox:I love you.
Alex Cox:I love you too. Can I have another hug? It's like you're tackling me. But ow. It tickles.
Alex Cox:I'm lying here in the room where Maddie came out to me, and I just listened to the argument we had the other day about when he texted me and I'm glad that we had that talk that's not what is filling me with regret It's how I reacted to him coming out in general. And Maddie has never held this above my head. Not once, but when we were in this room, I remember lying, staring at the ceiling,
Mattie Cox:and
Alex Cox:just feeling so lost and helpless for a number of reasons. Not just because I knew our lives were about to dramatically change, but I kept thinking about all of the times people had called me so many slurs At the time, I looked much more masculine than Matt did, and I was just thinking what was waiting for him as he would start transitioning. But the real thing I'm truly ashamed of is the internalized transphobia that I let come out. I asked him over and over, are you sure? Are you sure?
Alex Cox:Are you sure? Which definitely must have made him question his own transness. It was because I was having similar feelings, but I didn't know how to express them. I didn't think and I don't think that I'm a man. And yet, I still question why I hate my boobs so much and why sometimes wearing a dress makes me nauseous.
Alex Cox:But I never want to be the kind of person who questions somebody because of my own transphobia and my own fear, and I promise I'm going to try my hardest to never ever treat someone like that again. Do you have any final words about coming out or any advice for people who are coming out?
Mattie Cox:1st, I feel like I am the worst person to give advice for coming out. I just wanna start off with that. Second, though, I think it is okay to come out in any way you choose as long as you're safe. Like, as long as you know the person you're coming out to or you bring someone like a buddy with you, any way you come out is okay.
Alex Cox:Yes. I agree despite my initial reactions. I'm sorry. It's okay. Did you use any resources for when you were coming out?
Mattie Cox:Well, I did. But, like, the ones that are specifically tailored to me, so they're not, like, the greatest ones. But I used Howard Brown Health because it's located in Chicago. And I used Hudson's FTM resource guide, which has, like, everything about, FTM transitioning. And then I was looking up a couple others, and there's actually one on Planned Parenthood, and the top ones are The Trevor Project and GLAAD.
Mattie Cox:A lot of the resources are actually, for youth.
Alex Cox:I wish there were more resources for adults who were discovering new things about their gender, but maybe this podcast can sort of be one of those things.
Mattie Cox:Same. But it's also good that there's so many more resources for youth because we didn't have any of that.
Alex Cox:Yeah. That's exactly why neither of us were talking about gender 10 years ago. Right.
Mattie Cox:But it's good that there's that in the world now so that people Exactly. Don't have to wait this long to figure their stuff out. You know?
Alex Cox:Oh, man. Can you even imagine what it would have been like if Geocities was full of gender stuff, kind of like how Tumblr is now?
Mattie Cox:Would have blown my mind.
Alex Cox:I know. Right?
Mattie Cox:Doing that instead of playing Neopets, let me tell you. I
Alex Cox:no. I would have still I think I would've just liberated my Neopets from gender, but I still would've played that and Pokemon. I play Pokemon now, though, so, irrelevant.
Mattie Cox:We really appreciate you checking out the second episode of 2 headed girl, and we hope you tune in to more in the future. The music you heard in this episode is from Seth Boyer's album Half Lonely. Special thanks to our friends, Cathy Campbell, Margaret Dax, Mark Bramhill, Cara Fagan, Kevin Budnick, and our obnoxious cats. If you'd like to hear more, head over to 2headedgirl.fm or subscribe anywhere you find your podcasts, including our favorite independent app, Overcast, made by the wonderful Marco Arment. If you could leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever, we'd really appreciate it.
Mattie Cox:We also have a Patreon that will help us pay for my tap surgery, which isn't covered by insurance and allow us to put out episodes more regularly. Please reach out to tell us what you think. Ask us questions or send us memes on Twitter. We are at 2headedgirlfmoremailus@2headedgirlfm@gmail.com.
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